Curse

Canon · Sep 21, 2009, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Hi,

I'm Canon, and i'm a PvPer (GvG specifically). The purpose of this post is to hopefully generate some feedback on what the Guild Wars player base (American player base in particular) feels like it needs to become more involved with GvGing. I know that I would have stopped playing Guild Wars a while ago if it weren't for the GvG arena, regardless of its arguably declining nature, and it's the only thing keeping me interested in playing. I know that waking up for and participating in a Monthly Automated Tournament is one of the best feelings I've ever experienced while playing a video game. I know that through GvGing I have also been fortunate enough to meet some really cool people and become a part of a community with a shared interest in GvGing, which, in my opinion, is a concept greater than that which most online games have to offer.

With this in mind, I have to then ask what is holding members of the Guild Wars community back from getting into the GvG scene. Of course, I have my own guesses for what the answers to this question would be, but I've never really asked anybody what's stopping them. Do people feel like it's too late to become a part of the GvG community? Are people really interested in GvGing but just don't have the resources or know any other players with a shared interest?

If there's anything I forgot to mention please let me know and feel free to add whatever you feel is necessary to your responses to help me better understand the answers to these questions.

Edit: I'm really hoping for answers from people who find themselves to be in the situation I have described above, not from those who are a part of the GvG community. However, I do appreciate your input as well.

Thanks!

moriz · Sep 21, 2009, 10:47 PM // 22:47

the sheer logistical nightmare of getting:

-8 people from different part of the world
-getting those people to log on at the same time, consistently
-finding people that are likeminded, and similarly skilled
-and last of all, having those 8 people actually like each other

are the main deterrent of getting more people into gvg. it's the nature of the beast: the problem is the format itself.

Meridon · Sep 21, 2009, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Perhaps it is the skill level.

I started playing 2 years ago. From that moment my goal has always been to get into GvG. Still, it took me over a year and a half of intensive playing (2000+ hours so far) to get anywhere up to decent skill. Having had to learn my way in PvE first, then grinding RA for a long time, until I finally got some skill.

After that, it still is a hard transition to GvG. The PvP layout is focusing more on getting people into HA than GvG. A basic route to follow is PvE -> Isle of the Nameless -> Zaishen Arenas -> Random Arenas -> Team Arenas -> Heroes' Ascent. GvG is rather hard to get into that way, as it requires the player to specifically move off this path and go for a GvG guild. Of course, one of the contributing factors to people not doing GvG is that HA offers much more straightforward rewards (end chest), which people from a normal background are familiar with from PvE. GvG on the other hand, has only very hard-to-get format-based player rewards: the Champion title, cape trims, and Tournament Reward Points (disregarding XTH). Simply put, non-dedicated GvG players can get more out of playing other formats such as HA, more easily.

You could view GvG as a niche format in that way. Yet, it's arguably the most competitive, skilled, and fun format in all of Guild Wars. The fact that pretty much all of the PvP skill balancing resolve around GvG, is what in my opinion keeps the format alive. The Live Team probably realizes this.

You can imagine that getting into GvG is even harder for those who are not specifically working towards it. In the end though, this means that only the most dedicated players are willing to have a go at GvG, which only is a positive thing for the GvG community.

dr love · Sep 21, 2009, 11:07 PM // 23:07

1. I like farming, running pve stuff for people

2. If not that, I'm in HA
3. Then once in a while I do GvG

edit: on reading another post, I have found similar results. there are a lot of smurf guilds, and top players 'smurfing' for low rank guilds, that an inexperienced GvG team (even if the players are decent in other forms of pvp) will face many difficult teams at all rank levels.

Ravi · Sep 21, 2009, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meridon

Perhaps it is the skill level.

I started playing 2 years ago. From that moment my goal has always been to get into GvG. Still, it took me over a year and a half of intensive playing (2000+ hours so far) to get anywhere up to decent skill. Having had to learn my way in PvE first, then grinding RA for a long time, until I finally got some skill.

After that, it still is a hard transition to GvG. The PvP layout is focusing more on getting people into HA than GvG. A basic route to follow is PvE -> Isle of the Nameless -> Zaishen Arenas -> Random Arenas -> Team Arenas -> Heroes' Ascent. GvG is rather hard to get into that way, as it requires the player to specifically move off this path and go for a GvG guild. Of course, one of the contributing factors to people not doing GvG is that HA offers much more straightforward rewards (end chest), which people from a normal background are familiar with from PvE. GvG on the other hand, has only very hard-to-get format-based player rewards: the Champion title, cape trims, and Tournament Reward Points (disregarding XTH). Simply put, non-dedicated GvG players can get more out of playing other formats such as HA, more easily.

You could view GvG as a niche format in that way. Yet, it's arguably the most competitive, skilled, and fun format in all of Guild Wars. The fact that pretty much all of the PvP skill balancing resolve around GvG, is what in my opinion keeps the format alive. The Live Team probably realizes this.

You can imagine that getting into GvG is even harder for those who are not specifically working towards it. In the end though, this means that only the most dedicated players are willing to have a go at GvG, which only is a positive thing for the GvG community.

^ this, i've been playing on and off since launch, and GvG is still the same it was 4 yrs ago. (other than skill updates, and the monthly tournament, it's all the same.)

Sarevok Thordin · Sep 21, 2009, 11:20 PM // 23:20

GvG, in my view, simply isn't rewarding enough for people who aren't willing to invest LOTS of time into it. Sure you can raise a few rating points with some casual play, but you won't make it to the level where you can get the real player rewards very easily (Champion title comes to mind). You can get Balth faction sure, but there are other modes of play that award you this too, RA and JQ.

Next is the organization that GvG requires before you can really start playing it, first you need a build, then people who know those roles well, then can work with the rest of their team, know the vent lingo.

I could go on but long story short, GvG is VERY involved and requires more brainpower than any rollface PvE stuff for sure.

Although, if Anet revealed the Champion Monument granted some rediculously noticible reward in GW2 you can be assured that the GvG activity would spike something rotten...

stuntharley · Sep 21, 2009, 11:20 PM // 23:20

I'm a rank 10 HA'er, just moved into GvG a few nights ago.

2 wins, 7 losses... all we VS'd were top 100 smurfs and 2 bad teams.

That is what stops people from GvG'ing

Sarevok Thordin · Sep 21, 2009, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuntharley

I'm a rank 10 HA'er, just moved into GvG a few nights ago.

2 wins, 7 losses... all we VS'd were top 100 smurfs and 2 bad teams.

That is what stops people from GvG'ing

Oh yeah, that's another thing, foul play by high lvl GvGers <_<

Let's not forget what happened during that infamous MAT with Rawr...

lilDeath · Sep 21, 2009, 11:26 PM // 23:26

I have always been interested in PvP, and especially GvG.

The hurdles for me have always been - the logistics of getting 8 people together wanting to do the same thing, and being of similar skill and being able to work around their busy / life schedules to logon at the same time, etc. these are all the bigger issues.
It doesn't help that I am not a kid anymore, so all the folks I know are all busy with other things.

Also, just being who I am, I like to do everything, and the easiest to get into was PvE, of which I have pretty much done everything now.
A few months ago, a few guys and I hooked up and formed a GvG team, it went well and it was really my first and only exposure for the first time. This even though I have been religiously following the GvG scene for well over 2 years now, during the vD, eF and EW eras. (I have been playing for almost 4, Team Everfrost was the very first GvG I watched, the name sounded cool

). We probably ended up doing something like 30 GvGs, of which we won probably about 5 or so, maybe a few more. This was a brand new team, with not very good people, mind you. The team disbanded shortly after, because of real-life stepping in.
However, it was a blast while it lasted.

I happened to choose monking (infuser) as my role, and I got pretty into it. Practising whenever I could get a chance. I were even told that my monking got better with every game and week passing. This was cool, since the guys I was playing with played in the old Cry for Eternity [Cry] guild from 2 years ago, so they had top100 experience. This was before they got to top10.

Anyway, if I would meet the right people and could give it a go, I sure would do it again. Of course, not being in your normal EU or AM zones does not help (I am closer to EU timezone anyway) and my pings seriously suck at times, which generally some people will frown upon.

I reckon it is a cool format, very different from the rest of the arenas. I might just be in contact with the mentorship guilds (kiSu), but for now, my time is lacking a bit.

Sorry, I am not in America, but I wanted to contribute about my experience.

Jensy · Sep 21, 2009, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Actually, my guild is planning to get into GvG within the next two months. What's been holding us back is:

1) Scheduling. We've got players from all over the world, and getting a few hours where someone isn't at work/school/asleep, and then finding 8 of them to gather in one spot... eesh. Our "core" so to speak, is a 50/50 American/Euro split :P

2) The learning curve appears quite steep. You need to get 8 people first, sure, then you have to make sure all 8 understand the sort of dedication you need to start learning from the bottom, and lose quite often. Esp since when you're coming from PvE where it's all *faceroll* *WIN!* -- going to days and weeks of getting kicked the teeth usually makes people start dropping off the face of the earth.

This is not to say that I personally want things to be easy! It's just that less... well... dedicated people start dropping back to PvE when it gets too hard :P Which would leave the 8 people we have assembled with spots that are tough to fill.

3) We're a small guild (20 or so?), in a very small/quiet PvE-based alliance. We really don't know many folks that can give advice/tell us UR DOIN IT RONG, but here's how to improve. I did get some great advice off the [rawr] forums, but in terms of actually having people in game we can talk to... that's a bit tougher. Sure, we could move, but ... where to go, you know?

Now, in spite of all of these things, we're going to give it a shot. We may be sort of crazy, and we're going to spend quite a bit of time taking dirtnaps, but it looks like fun. Do want.

Chocobo1 · Sep 21, 2009, 11:32 PM // 23:32

New Zealand ping means 300-500 lag constantly. So I feel as if there is no point really trying to get into GvG, as even though I understand the game and play well, my timing for stuff like Interupts, Prots and Heals would be off.

stuntharley · Sep 21, 2009, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocobo1

New Zealand ping means 300-500 lag constantly. So I feel as if there is no point really trying to get into GvG, as even though I understand the game and play well, my timing for stuff like Interupts, Prots and Heals would be off.

I'm from Australia and get the same ping, I have never had trouble interupting a 1 second cast. Not that, that means much anyway.

But you don't red bar prot/heal you follow their damage and it makes healing/protting so much easier.

Martin Alvito · Sep 21, 2009, 11:50 PM // 23:50

I left in early 2006 because I got tired of trying to catch the ridiculously clean spikes of eight Koreans using the same connection in the same room for 45 minutes. I've come back for brief stretches here and there when friends have been determined to GvG, but not because I truly enjoyed the format.

Even today, good matches are stupid long for a format that demands continuous perfect play. Top end GvG is mentally exhausting srs bsns, and anything less than top end play doesn't carry the rewards necessary to attract and retain a player base. Also, you have to fail for hours and hours and hours and hours to become skilled and, as noted by others, most people don't have the patience for it.

Long story short, all the time the best players invested created an externality (the steep learning curve) that cut off the inflow of new players, given the fail rewards for being anyplace below the very top of the GvG community.

Chocobo1 · Sep 21, 2009, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuntharley

I'm from Australia and get the same ping, I have never had trouble interupting a 1 second cast. Not that, that means much anyway.

But you don't red bar prot/heal you follow their damage and it makes healing/protting so much easier.

1 Second I can get, but many key skills are 3/4 which I figured are pretty important to get (WoH comes to mind).

And yeah, I don't generally Red Bar but during stuff like R-Spike I have a fair bit of trouble following the damage. But hmm, I guess I should have another go at it.

*lemming* · Sep 22, 2009, 12:03 AM // 00:03

I feel like I'm held back from GvGing because all my matches take 28 minutes to complete.

Zahr Dalsk · Sep 22, 2009, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canon

With this in mind, I have to then ask what is holding members of the Guild Wars community back from getting into the GvG scene.

Here's what we'd have to do to get into GvG:

Step 1: Find eight players on similar schedules who can all get along and fill each role in a team. (This is very difficult to find and even if I did, we'd just go vanquishing because unlike GvG, vanquishing is actually FUN and I play games because they're GAMES and games are supposed to be FUN, which GvG is not.)
Step 2: Find an appropriate build.
Step 3: Actually master this build.
Step 4: Countless trial and error against other guilds, trying to learn to play GvG.

Generally speaking it breaks down between steps 2 and 3.

I'll tell you this: if there was a Random GvG arena (completely random teams from the arena) I'd play that a lot. Man, that'd actually be fun because we wouldn't have to achieve the impossible Step 1 and we wouldn't go against obsessive GvGers. Same goes for HA. A Random HA would be the best thing to happen to HA in years.

tl;dr GvG is work, not fun.

On a more personal note: I constantly have BitTorrent slowing my connection down what with the massive psytrance discographies I'm downloading, and I also like to be able to step away from the computer every now and then.

Dawn Angelheart · Sep 22, 2009, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

the sheer logistical nightmare of getting:

-8 people from different part of the world
-getting those people to log on at the same time, consistently
-finding people that are likeminded, and similarly skilled
-and last of all, having those 8 people actually like each other

are the main deterrent of getting more people into gvg. it's the nature of the beast: the problem is the format itself.

I Gvg for almost 2-3 hours an evening when time permits.

i can honestly say that when forming a guild, these are a list of the biggest problems.

Adding on one though: Your team not giving up, losing moral after losing.
Some guilds lose all night long, after a while things click and your on your way.

When you get by these, you will find, either Your team will do well starting off. rating 1000, is around Rank 970. and you will go up to top 600, then you struggle a bit as when you get further than that, you get good guilds who know what they are doing. Once you get about R400 i think it is, you could be paired off with anyone from Rank 1 to Rank whatever. so you do have to know what your doing to compete and be able to play as well as these guilds.

All this being said IF you dont run into smurf guilds, which imo are the biggest problem with GvG.

If you do not do well at Rating 1000, and you drop lower, you will find that games either become quickly won, or quickly lost.

Shadowspawn X · Sep 22, 2009, 03:11 AM // 03:11

GvG is for pro players, regular players can't succeed there.

Sk8tborderx · Sep 22, 2009, 03:13 AM // 03:13

The 14 day requirement for ATs is the biggest reason I just can't get back into GvG. I hate ladder play for the most part, and I don't feel like waiting 2 weeks before having fun.

stuntharley · Sep 22, 2009, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Here's what we'd have to do to get into GvG:

Step 1: Find eight players on similar schedules who can all get along and fill each role in a team. (This is very difficult to find and even if I did, we'd just go vanquishing because unlike GvG, vanquishing is actually FUN and I play games because they're GAMES and games are supposed to be FUN, which GvG is not.)

See I love how you label GvG as not a game. Game's are ment to be played against people, GvG is more of a game then vanquishing.